No. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. So yeah, this is awesome. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. So Ive got two more questions here. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. So theres lots of bad arguments. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? So it would-. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. What about after the apostolic age? The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. Okay. So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. They also allude to events and stories contained in these texts. Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. So do it. It follows that Mary is the mother of God. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. steve.christie@phmloans.com. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. . Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. All right. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. Make an Appointment Steve. And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. I didnt talk about sister-in-law. They would be sons from another marriage. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. I say this by way of concession, not of command. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. In the late 1980s, Cohen was an ardent enthusiast of Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika reforms; he and his wife, Katrina vanden Heuvel, now editor in chief of The Nation, co-authored Voices of . I was wrong there. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. And this is what I did in the opening statement. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. I do. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. Alright? That seems to be something that went without contention. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. Nice to have you. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. If I could just. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Probably not like any other piece of wood. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. Okay. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. But it doesnt demand for that though. His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? This is hard, isnt it? I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. This is not the rule. . Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. Well, right. This is fantastic. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. He says, Steve. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Okay, you can start now. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. Okay. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Trent, did you want to-. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. If anything, Revelation chapter 12 verses one through six describes Mary being in heaven. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. But it doesnt say anything about him being bodily assumed or anything. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. Heres my thought on that. Okay. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. It would always demand that. I agree with what that person teaches. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. Finally, as H.G.L. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. This is really great. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. Okay. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. Id have to respond individually. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. Anything else you might disagree with? Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. So we have to read the context. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. The son of Jonah? Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. Steve will point to Jesus in sacred scripture. All right. They point us to Jesus Christ. Im not sure. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. United States. 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